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Why attack 'trickle-down economics?' It doesn't exist - and never has done - Spectator Blogs
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Why attack ‘trickle-down economics?’ It doesn’t exist – and never has done

During this election campaign, some intelligent people ? politicians and columnists ?? have attacked “trickle-down economics” in the mistaken belief that it exists. Or that it ever?existed. It’s a myth.?In his classic book, Basic Economics, Thomas Sowell?gives a brief history. Here’s the excerpt:-

There have been many economic theories over the centuries, accompanied by controversies among different schools of economists. But one of the most politically prominent economic theories today is one that has never existed among economists ? the ‘trickle down’ theory. Yet this non-existent theory has been attacked from the New York Times to a writer in India. Franklin D. Roosevelt’s speechwriter Samuel Rosenman referred to:-

‘the philosophy that had prevailed in Washington since 1921, that the object of government was to provide prosperity for those who lived and worked at the top of the economic pyramid, in the belief that prosperity would trickle down to the bottom of the heap and benefit all.’

The same theme was repeated in the election campaign of 2008, when candidate Barack Obama attacked what he called ‘the economic philosophy’ which

‘says we should give more and more to those with the most and hope that prosperity tickles down to everyone else.’

Whether in the United States or in India, and whether in the past or in the present, ‘trickle down’ has been a characterisation and rejection of what somebody else supposedly believed. Moreover, it has been considered unnecessary to cite any given person who had actually advocated any such thing.

The phrase ‘trickle down’ often comes up in discussions of tax policies.Tax revenues have in a number of instances gone up when tax rates have been reduced. But any proposal by economists or others to cut tax rates, including reducing the tax rates on higher incomes or on capital gains, can lead to accusations that those making such proposals must believe that benefits should be given to the wealthy in general or to business in particular, in order that these benefits will eventually ‘trickle down’ to the masses of ordinary people.

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But no recognised economist of any school of thought has ever had any such theory or made any such proposal. It is a straw man. It cannot be found in even the most voluminous and learned histories of economic theories.

What is sought by those who advocate lower rates of taxation or other reductions of government’s role in the economy is not the transfer of existing wealth to higher income earners or businesses but the creation of additional wealth when businesses are less hampered by government controls or by increasing government appropriation of that additional wealth under steeply progressive taxation laws. Whatever the merits or demerits of this view, this is the argument that is made ? and which is not confronted, but evaded, by talk of a non-existent ‘trickle down’ theory.

More fundamentally, economic processes work in the directly opposite way from that depicted by those who imagine that profits first benefit business owners and that benefits only belatedly trickle down to workers.

When an investment is made, whether to build a railroad or to open a new restaurant, the first money is spent hiring people to do the work. Without that, nothing happens. Even when one person decides to operate a store or hamburger stand without employees, that person must first pay somebody to deliver the goods that are being sold. Money goes out first to pay expenses and then comes back as profits later ? it at all. The high rate of failure of new businesses makes painfully clear that there is nothing inevitable about the money coming back.

Even with successful and well-established businesses, years may elapse between the initial investment and the return of earnings. From the time when an oil company begins spending money to explore for petroleum to the time when the first gasoline resulting from that exploration comes out of a pump at a filling station, a decade may have passed. In the meantime, all sorts of employees have been paid ? geologists, engineers, refinery workers, and truck drivers, for example. It is only afterwards that profits begin coming in. Only then are there any capital gains to tax. The real effect of a reduction in the capital gains tax is that it opens the prospect of greater future net profits and thereby provides incentives to make current investments that create current employment.

Nor is the oil industry unique. No one who begins publishing a newspaper expects to make a profit ? or even break even ? during the first year or two. [note: Sowell was writing at a time when newspapers were profitable] But reporters and other members of the newspaper staff expect to be paid every payday, even while the paper only shows red ink on the bottom line. Similarly, Amazon.com began operating in 1995 but its first profits did not appear until the last quarter of 2001, after the company had lost a total of $2.8 billion over the years. Even a phenomenally successful enterprise like the McDonald’s restaurant chain ran up millions of dollars in debts for years before it saw the first dollar of profit. Indeed, it teetered on the brink of bankruptcy more than once in its early years. But the people behind the counter selling hamburgers were paid regularly all that time.

In short, the sequence of payments is directly the opposite of what is assumed by those who talk about a ‘trickle down’ theory. The workers must be paid first and then the profits flow upward later ? if at all.

This is an extract from Sowell’s Basic Economics ? which no self-respecting bookshelf or Kindle is complete without. Buy it here.


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  • mickey667

    Is it not just a disparaging way of describing the ‘wealth creator’ hypothesis?

    Whereby the rich are lauded and protected because they bring wealth to a society, pay taxes and empty people etc,

    The opposing view being that they don’t create wealth but accumulate it, and then must be taxed on it. Wealth instead being created instead by surgeons, computer scientists, engineers, chemical researchers, disease prevention scientists etc?

  • sandersdogman

    You’re not Capitalists.

  • willshome

    How ignorant you are. J K Galbraith, writing a generation ago, indicated its ancestry as “horse and sparrow” economics that go back a century. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1982/feb/04/recession-economics/

  • Cornelius Bonkers

    Economics is not a science and never can be. Calling it “basic” changes nothing. 8 billion “Invisible hands” rules out human behaviour as an inferential proposition. Just like psychologists, economists are charlatans – they will mislead but not save us…

  • tolpuddle1

    Since the Right has constantly ballyhooed in favour of trickle-down economics since about 1980 – and since it rules the West – pretending trickle-down economics doesn’t exist is close to the ultimate in dishonesty.

    Or typically right-wing, in other words.

  • JSC

    I do love Thomas Sowell. His lectures are always accessible, interesting and cut through the BS straight to the core issues. The UK could do with some economists like this! It might even put pay to the “tax breaks for millionaires” argument the knuckle draggers are so fond of. I’m always tickled when the “trickle down economics doesn’t work” brigade extrapolate their solution which is inevitably “trickle down state spending” which unlike being totally inaccurate in the first case is in fact bang on target in the second.

    • Isaiah 2:4

      Trickle down state spending ought to be driven by different parameters than trickle down spending of industry. They go hand in hand.

  • Frank

    Trickle-down is supposed to be the justification to opening our doors to all the rich foreign crooks and non-doms!

  • James

    Smart folks with basic economic knowledge know that EU austerity policy forces corporate privatisation and coupled with other EU policy we have the biggest wealth gap and inequality in history but, political leaders are funded by corporations with interests in privatising our public services so they won’t admit it.

  • HJ777

    “This is an extract from Sowell’s Basic Economics ? which no self-respecting bookshelf or Kindle is complete without.”

    Every Kindle, self-respecting or not, is without it since there is no Kindle version.

  • global city

    ‘Trickle down’ was a device invented by the Left in order to be able to attack a system they otherwise could not do.

    • tolpuddle1

      Trickle down has always been the Right’s favourite argument for pampering the rich and uber-rich.

    • red2black

      The term has been around since the late nineteenth century, and most people who’ve used the term either positively or negatively ever since can hardly be described as ‘Left’.

  • ganross

    People need to get their heads around the idea that demand is the driver of supply. Supply isn’t the creator of demand. More demand happens where people have more money. People only have more money when they create high value goods. The mass creation of high value goods takes: 1. social stability 2. education 3. infrastructure such as roads and the internet 4. capital equipment.

    People don’t remember that the wealthy do better, in exact proportion to their customers doing better.

    • Isaiah 2:4

      No, it isn’t that simple – supply creates demand, it’s called progress.

    • tolpuddle1

      Only if markets are perfect – as they so rarely are.

  • ganross

    There are clear weaknesses in this piece. Firstly, the “trickle down” concept refers to policies preferencing accumulation of wealth disproportionately to the the accumulation of wealth by the poor. In the illustrative example of the restaurant the fact the among the first expenditures is wage for poor workers, shows nothing about proportion of wealth that is returned to the wealthy or the poor. The fact that a return may come to the restaurant investor “later if at all” is irrelevant if the risk discounted value of the investment far exceeds the value of the investment made, and subsequent to that the taxation (public share) of the wealth creation fails to facilitate the optimal good for society as a whole (taxes are insufficient to fund education which in turn produces high value goods).

    Moreover, the author is essentially citing the business model used by small business investors unaware of risk or unskilled to calculate risk adjusted returns on capital investment. Extreme wealth is made not in small business, but in big business, often where capital itself is dominant. Who cares that a hedge fund with $7 billion has to start by paying 10 workers a total of $10 million, but makes $2 billion in profit in one year, the bulk of which is tax sheltered. Big business opens not one restaurant, but 1000. Some will succeed, some will dramatically fail. Business failure confers no moral superiority, as every risk that fails is balanced by more risks that succeed, by definition, unless the risk taking was ill informed or unskilled. Capital markets mean that even when large risks such as the McDonalds start up risk are taken, it is in effect share by millions of risk takers via the share market, who in turn have diversified portfolios of risk.Or when one risk costs a lot it is balanced by one big risk that pays of in even greater piles of cash (think tech VC funding).

    In reality, efficient economies need someone to build the factory and someone to work in the factory (literally and metaphorically speaking). Therefore previously it required an individual with sufficient capital to build the factory at a risk adjusted level. This can only be achieved where social policy allows some people to become very wealthy and still incentivised to take risk. But factories only exist where there are customers, and more factories exist were there are a bulk of moderately wealthy customers. This works well where a significant portion of the workers produce high value goods (managerial tasks). A rate of taxation that optimises public good (and capitalism is merely a device to optimise public good, not a divine right) creates sufficient extreme wealth people to be factory investors, but creates a supportive environment that builds the creative capacity of the bulk of society in ways that no individual factory owner would voluntarily choose to pay for. (national defence, education, highways)

    “Trickle down” critique, essentially criticise those that deify the wealth as “job creators” and fail to see that state funded education is “job creation”, that national defence is “job creation” and so on.

    There is no such thing as the self made millionaire. They live in a country that has regulated financial systems, that has social stability due to consistent national defence, that has educated workers.

  • Perseus Slade

    Judging from the games of Monopoly that I have played (which always ended badly), it seem that the economic process is rather one of sucking up rather than trickling down.

    As Jesus Christ aptly put it “For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.”

    Wealth gets concentrated in fewer and fewer hands until there is a revolution, that seems to be the way of history.

    • Hegelman

      Sowell should read HISTORY. He clearly knows none.

    • little islander

      Is this the Matthew effect and what Marx is saying, or is this a promise of abundant wealth from Jesus Christ to followers? My friends, Chinese, believe it’s the latter.

  • Hegelman

    “The high rate of failure of new businesses makes painfully clear that there
    is nothing inevitable about the money coming back.”

    Don’t you admire employees for not being impressed and demanding high wages just the same?

    It shows the greatness of the human spirit. They are unimpressed by anyone with money and power, no matter how good his case. They say:”Fuck You, man, gimme, gimme, gimme!”

    Good for them! That’s why I respect human beings in spite of everything.

    • tolpuddle1

      It’s the rich who are being greedy, not workers.

      • little islander

        They built the housing for me and they produce the food so I didn’t starve. You ingrate. Shush!

  • Hegelman

    “When an investment is made, whether to build a railroad or to open a new
    restaurant, the first money is spent hiring people to do the work.
    Without that, nothing happens. Even when one person decides to operate a
    store or hamburger stand without employees, that person must first pay
    somebody to deliver the goods that are being sold. Money goes out first
    to pay expenses and then comes back as profits later ? it at all. The
    high rate of failure of new businesses makes painfully clear that there
    is nothing inevitable about the money coming back.”

    Correct.

    When a slave plantation was set up, the owner first paid for the slaves, the land and the machinery, and that took a lot of money. He had to feed the slaves before he could get any work out of them.

    Even then, the produce often did not bring in profits for a long time.

    Slavery was tough business.

    Slaves had it good. They got to eat BEFORE they ever did any work!

    So Sowell can prove slavery was a fine institution.

    • mattghg

      What on earth are you going on about?

      • Ill-Liberal

        Can you tell me if you find out please ??

        • mattghg

          OK … but don’t hold your breath

  • Hegelman

    We ought to worship politicians, because they have to fight elections before they win, and often lose.

  • Hegelman

    “The real effect of a reduction in the capital gains tax is that it opens the prospect of greater future net profits and thereby provides incentives to make current investments that create current employment.”

    Not necessarily. There was very low capital gains tax in the Thirties and universal Depression.

    Often, if taxes boosts demand, this stimulates industry and profits.

    It all depends on how wisely taxes are spent. Taxes as such do not necessarily discourage investment.

    Sowell should read HISTORY. He clearly knows none.

  • Hegelman

    How come then that societies with high tax rates like the Scanduinavian ones invariably report the most satisfied populations and the best health care and other social conditions?

    If Sowell were right, the perfect society would be Afghanistan where the state does next to nothing for you.

    • Mr B J Mann

      But surely the Scandinavians *HAD* ” the most satisfied populations and the best health care and other social conditions”?

      But how things are changing!

      Meanwhile, surely in Afghanistan the “state” does far too much:

      How much “state” funding, how many $*BILLIONS* of it, is sloshing around that country?!?!?!

      How much “state” intervention has there been?!?!?!

      And how has that affected it!!!!!!

  • Hegelman

    “The workers must be paid first and then the profits flow upward later ? if at all.”

    Therefore, pay them next to nothing. They don’t need to eat, the fat buggers.

  • Hegelman

    I could write a beautiful book, “Basic Communism” which proves if EVERYONE behaved sensibly, Communism would work beautifully, too,

    So?

  • davidofkent

    I doubt that we ‘give’ more and more to those at the top. I would say that they take it, either because obviously ‘money makes money’ or because ‘they have ways and means’. It’s pretty clear that trickle-down does not work, whether or not it is a theory. Though I am in favour of capitalism, in general, it is obvious to me that something has been going awry. Perhaps the few with the money have accumulated such a lot that they have the sort of clout now that makes politicians quiver with fear. Unfortunately, history also tells us that a reversal of this trend is usually quite nasty and actually does nobody any good. Let’s hope it’s different this time (are you laughing or crying?).

  • The Masked Marvel

    A nice reminder about the real meaning of investment and capital, in the midst of an election campaign where even the so-called Conservative party seems to see throwing money around to appease left-wing ideologists as “investment”.

  • Dogsnob

    What a revolting image, somewhat akin to the infamous ‘follow through’. (‘Scuse my French)

  • sfin

    A poster on here, replying to one of my posts on Non-Doms, related a recent anecdote.

    A friend of his ran a small, independent building company who were engaged by a Russian tycoon to carry out some “home improvements” on his, recently acquired, London pied a terre.

    The budget was £31 million.

    That is trickle down economy.

  • oregun

    Blame the messenger is the word for today. Socialists/communists love to berate the invisible “trickle down theory” when they are responsible for the collapses you see today. The more we head toward crony capitalism and socialism the worse our lives become or haven’t you noticed.

    • Purple Commoner

      There is no threat of ‘socialism’ in Britain. Crony capitalism however exists everywhere.

      • oregun

        That is true about socialism as it is already there. That holds true for most of what we call western civilizations. We are paying so much for social programs that we can no longer defend ourselves from attack. It is the rot from within.

        • red2black

          What do you propose in place of socialism and crony capitalism?

          • oregun

            Free market capitalism. Let the businesses thrive or go under depending on the consumers needs or wants. The government picking winners or losers is lining the pols pockets with money. Environmentalists blackmailing businesses for donations is another dagger in the heart of business. In generations past that would have been considered racketeering but now the government and their enviro friends are extorting money from business and it is all fair play.

            • Fried Ch’i

              Wrong answer sunshine, nice try though.
              Free market capitalism n e v e r existed. Oh wait, it did, briefly, once, in Manchester. Why did it implode?

            • red2black

              What happens to people who can’t afford things if prices are determined solely by the market?
              Housing, education and healthcare for example.
              Surely even a free market system would entail some form of bureaucracy and means of enforcement?

              • oregun

                There will always be people who can’t afford what they want. It is the desire to improve your lot which creates a better society. When the government interferes it inflates the cost of goods and people lose their incentives to work and better their station in life. Competition for goods and services is what keeps the cost down and bureaucracy just adds to the cost.

                • red2black

                  Begin with what people need. Housing, food, water, healthcare and the like. There will be people under a laissez faire free market system who will be unable to afford these things. Add to that people who are incapable of responding to incentives and improving things for themselves; people who are badly disabled in some way for example. What happens to them?
                  We seem to end up with some sort of mixed economy out of social and economic necessity. Or are you claiming that under a laissez faire free market system, everyone will be able to afford what the market dictates?

  • Mystified Man

    Basic Economics was the first economics book I ever read and I still don’t think I have ever read a better one.

    • Count Dooku

      Sowell and especially Friedman influenced a lot of my politics today. Two great thinkers who could explain the political economy with eloquence and simplicity.

      Unfortunately we don’t have many champions of Liberty like these two today.

      • Mystified Man

        There are still a few out there I think; Schiff, Salerno and Rockwell spring to mind. Doug Casey is still around too.

        I don’t think there is anyone as pragmatic nor as good a communicator as Milton Friedman though.

        But it does annoy me that I often have to go state side to hear these arguments.

        • Count Dooku

          Schiff is seen as a looney! I should know given I watch every video he puts on YouTube. He’s also not an academic economist.

          Friedman was a Titan. An academic libertarian who was globally respected and who actually influenced government policy. Greenspan & Raegan were his disciples. Thatcher and Joseph. Now academia is dominated by the left.

          • Mystified Man

            Yes, but perhaps Freidman was more effective at influencing policy because there were more receptive ears there to listen.

            Is it the Austrians fault that no one listens to them despite the evidence?

            And I agree with your last point.

            The arguments haven’t significantly changed since Bastiat and Say, it’s just that the intellectual and political classes are more homogeneous and less tolerant of dissent.

            But the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage, seems like the kind of guy who would embrace these ideas.

            • Count Dooku

              I’m not sure. Even on the Republican, Tory and UKIP right, you have lots of conventional thinkers who embrace private markets but want the state to control the most important market of all – money.

              You have Paul, Carswell and Kwarteng that are pretty well known, but they are no where near forming policy.

          • Cornelius Bonkers

            Indeed, God help us. And where’s Hayek when we need him?

      • global city

        Miliband isn’t ignorant of the basic economics, he is engaging in the propaganda

        In other words, he is telly lies to deceive us..

        • Cornelius Bonkers

          There is no such thing as “basic economics” if “basic” is meant to mean “scientific” in terms of fundamental forces and laws…

    • Fried Ch’i

      Not bad, MM. Here some links for you for further study, and all those who don’t do Brand.

      http://ocsid.politics.ox.ac.uk/
      http://inequality.hks.harvard.edu/
      http://web.stanford.edu/group/scspi/

      I know I know, this is too much to take in for the bongo bongo people.

      • AgZarp

        How many sock puppet accounts do you have, Fried?

        • Fried Ch’i

          Ask Delingpole why he is allowing his journos to copy my lines. Any comments on the above, troll? I like the Harvard/Stanford links best – they are such f . . . in powerful players.

    • Hegelman

      I could write a beautiful book, “Basic Communism”, which proves if
      EVERYONE behaved sensibly, Communism would work beautifully, too,

      So?

      If everyone worked hard for the general good, all would benefit and we could live in a free and equal society.

      They don’t and we can’t.

      Same re Sowellian Perfect Capitalism.

      • http://ifwhattheysayistrue.blogspot.co.uk/ Matthew Stevens

        The great thing about capitalism is that we don’t need people to be ‘sensible’, altruistic or even particularly nice for the world to become a better place as the free market simply responds to human demand; dragging people out of poverty and alleviating the pain and suffering inflicted by the authoritarian socialism that marred the 20th Century.

        • Hegelman

          With massive inputs from Socialism and Communism.

          Thanks to the deadly challenge to the capitalist system posed by Communism, capitalism was forced to reform and adopt the welfare state. The working class would have revolted in the 1940s and 1950s had this not happened. Now when the working class movement has died, the welfare state is being dismantled from day to day.

        • Hegelman

          When free market ideology was applied to Russia in the 1990s under the guidance of Thatcherite fanatics, the Russian death rate soared and a holocaust as bad as Stalin’s or worse occurred. This was noted by US sociologist Michael Mann. No wonder Russians hate the West today.

          • little islander

            an actor was involved, no?

          • http://patientambition.com/ Nick

            what “holocaust” are you referring to?

      • Mystified Man

        “If everyone worked hard for the general good, all would benefit and we could live in a free and equal society.”

        The point you miss, and the point that a lot of collectivists always seem incapable of realising, is that not everyone shares there same objectives.

        • Hegelman

          Precisely. I was being ironic.

          My point is that there is an “infallible” argument for Communism as well as capitalism: IF you assume everyone does what he is supposed to do, the system will work.

          In both cases the systems don’t work because people won’t do what the theoreticians like Sowell (in the capitalist case) and fanatical Marxists (in the Communist case) expect them to do.

          • Mystified Man

            I am struggling to understand your argument. What exactly do you think Sowell is expecting people to do?

            • Hegelman

              I presume Sowell wants everyone to abandon all ideas of trying to reduce wealth inequalities. He wants to end taxes on capitalists. He no doubt wants to eliminate any form of socialised medical care. He no doubt wants to eliminate welfare. He no doubt wants to end any attempt by the government to regulate the economy.

              In short, he, and you, want to go back to a mythical Golden Age when capitalism enjoyed full-blooded laissez-faire and the poor got work or dropped dead. Little children were worked to death in the factories, etc.

              There is nothing wrong with either your or Sowell’s desire to have the Rich Man Takes All society. All I am saying is that the rest of us will refuse to cooperate with it and so it will not work.

              • Mystified Man

                No I meant what do you think Sowell expects people to do in a pure capitalist society?

                “In both cases the systems don’t work because people won’t do what the theoreticians like Sowell (in the capitalist case) and fanatical Marxists (in the Communist case) expect them to do.” – That is what you said.

                I am asking; what do you think Sowell expects them to do, and why won’t they do this?

                And in response to the bulk of what you said; (and I will take one example) just because I say I don’t want the government to provide healthcare to those that cannot afford it, that doesn’t mean I don’t want those who cannot afford healthcare to go without. It simply means that I disagree with the use of government as the tool.

                If I see my physician for a pain in my back, and he prescribes a foot massage. My disagreement with his prescribed treatment is not an admittance that I don’t want my back fixed, it is a disagreement over the method employed to fix it.

                • Hegelman

                  Sowell expects people not to rely on the state for anything, to abandon all ideas of social equality, and to drop dead if they can’t find work.

                  If he doesn’t believe in this he becomes a socialist after all.

                  Christianity and Islam? How many perished thanks to them? Ask the Amerindian civilizations of the Americas – what is left of them.

                  Yet people – RIGHTLY – value both Christianity and Islam very highly. They brought new and great values to the world.

                  Similarly Communism, despite the crimes of some people in its name. It brought the world the ideals of internationalism, social justice and universal brotherhood.

                • Hegelman

                  You are not very bright, and it is tiresome explaining things to you.

                  Obviously Sowell expects the unemployed doctor to become a garbage collector so as to ensure full employment always prevails. The old boring free market mantra. The doctor won’t: he will demand social security payments until he gets a job as a doctor. So, unemployment will be there.

                  That wrecks the free market.

                  Und so weiter. Go figure.

              • xpatYankeeCurmudgeon

                You have not read Sowell.

          • Cornelius Bonkers

            No you’re wrong, there is nothing infallible in capitalism – this is the point of the invisible hands (plural) metaphor…Glad to be of help

            • Hegelman

              What I meant is explained in more detail below.

              Briefly, Sowell expects people not to rely on the state for anything, to abandon all ideas of social equality, and to drop dead if they can’t find work. On that condition “full employment” capitalism of the pre-1930s kind can indeed “work”.

              Obviously Sowell expects the unemployed doctor to become a garbage collector so as to ensure full employment always prevails. The old boring free market mantra. The doctor won’t: he will demand social security payments until he gets a job as a doctor. So, unemployment will be there.

              That wrecks the free market.

              Unfortunately for Sowell but fortunately for anyone who values a civilized society, people in general in the rich nations no longer accept that truly “free” capitalism and expect the state to provide extensive social services.

              If Sowell doesn’t believe in this kind of “free” capitalism he becomes a kind of socialist after all.

        • Hegelman

          I did say:

          “If everyone worked hard for the general good, all would benefit and we could live in a free and equal society.

          They don’t and we can’t.”

      • Cornelius Bonkers

        Oh H-man just stop it..please! Your irony isn’t working

    • Hegelman

      Have you read The Communist Manifesto or Marx’s Das Kapital?

      The first volume of “Kapital” is a scorching good read. Volumes 2 and 3 are extremely technical.

      • Curnonsky

        Every page soaked in the blood of the innocent millions who perished under Communism. Crawl back in your hole.

        • Hegelman

          I take it you are referring to Christianity and Islam? How many perished thanks to them? Ask the Amerindian civilizations of the Americas – what is left of them.

          Communism saved the world from fascism.

          • Curnonsky

            Communism slaughtered untold tens of millions while reducing the living to slavery – and does that bother its apologists? No, actually it rather excites them.

            • Hegelman

              To this day Russians respect Lenin despite fanatical attempts by the state to discredit him.

              Recently a Russian official, asked why Soviet emblems remained on display in Russia, replied: Ordinary people here have a good opinion of the Soviet era.

              • little islander

                My ‘capitalist’ friend who visited Russia 4 years ago confirmed this and found the Russians, esp the older folks, to possess a serenity and dignity not seen in her other travels.

                • Hegelman

                  Thanks for that confirmation. I entirely agree about the serenity and dignity of Russians. They have been through a lot and managed to draw on the whole big-hearted conclusions from it. No one deserves higher praise.

            • Hegelman

              I take it you are referring to Christianity and Islam? How many perished thanks to them? Ask the Amerindian civilizations of the Americas – what is left of them.

              Yet people – RIGHTLY – value both Christianity and Islam very highly. They brought new and great values to the world.

              Similarly Communism, despite the crimes of some people in its name. It brought the world the ideals of internationalism, social justice and universal brotherhood.

          • Cornelius Bonkers

            Whaaaaat?

      • Mystified Man

        Thomas Sowell used to be a Marxist. He remained a Marxist even after studying under Milton Friedman at Chicago.

        But a short time working in a government bureau, witnessing their inefficiencies first hand, convinced him that the state was not the answer to anyone’s problems.

        • sandersdogman

          He learned where the money was.

      • JSC

        I have read many of Marx (and Engle’s) writing, and I have to disagree. The communist manifesto is utter tripe. Dull, badly written, laden with unsupported hypothesis and with an underlying current of malice. I have also read volume 1 of Das Kapital (I couldn’t stomach volume 2) which again reeks of attempting to fit the facts to a predetermined idea of how things are. I don’t have the link to hand but there’s a video lecture series by the Economics Professor emeritus from Princeton Uni talking about what Marx got wrong. It’s about 3-4 hours long, but the short version can be understood as: Everything. His economic analysis was wrong, he was wrong about peoples motivations, his predicted outcomes were wrong. In short, wrong about everything. All Marx offers is a one-size-fits-all narrative, one that is wrong, but can be applied to anything with the same results.

        I put it to you, that the only reason Marx is revered the way he is, is because of the hundreds of billions spent indoctrinating millions of people into his philosophy by the USSR, China etc.

        • Hegelman

          Marx understood there was a class struggle.

          The Communist Manifesto was declared by Orwell to be the best tract ever written, the most stirring. Countless people would concur. You prefer Jeffrey Archer, but that is your taste,

          Marx predicted that economic wealth would become concentrated in ever fewer hands. He predicted that economic instability would cause revolutions. He predicted that capitalism would expand word-wide. He predicted that social services would have to be created: much of the modern welfare state is foreseen in the list of measures proposed by him and Engels in the Manifesto itself in 1848.

          Thanks to the deadly challenge to the capitalist system posed by
          Communism, capitalism was forced to reform and adopt the welfare state. The working class would have revolted in the 1940s and 1950s had this not happened. Now when the working class movement has died, the welfare state is being dismantled from day to day.

          • JSC

            I’m sorry, I don’t believe in his class struggle narrative. It might have had some truth 200 years ago when he wrote it, but it’s irrelevant in the modern world.

            To save myself some time, consider reading: http://www.adamsmith.org/research/think-pieces/why-marx-was-wrong-about-capitalism/

            And that list isn’t exhaustive, it misses out some of his even crazier notions, such as that capitalists had genetic defects causing their greedy-capitalist-ways, and those genes could be bred out… or deliberately exterminated. A task taken up by a number of his students, Pol Pot springs to mind.

            • red2black

              It’s also true that there have been searches for a ‘Red Gene’. The work of Antonio Vallejo-Najero for example, in General Franco’s Spain. It seems Marx took the ubiquitous ‘Ages of the World’ scheme, stripped away its theological framework and redefined it in economic language, to serve as the basic historical model for Communism.

        • Hegelman

          “I put it to you, that the only reason Marx is revered the way he is, is because of the hundreds of billions spent indoctrinating millions of people into his philosophy by the USSR, China etc.”

          This contradicts the capitalist theory of consumer CHOICE.

          • JSC

            Those countries weren’t capitalist so their citizens never had a choice, they were brainwashed from being at school. You’re free to be a communist in a capitalist society, the reverse is not true. I think it’s telling that, given the ubiquity of information we now have on the internet, these countries are now choosing capitalism over communism.

            • Hegelman

              I am not – sigh – a defender of Stalinism.

              You are too ignorant to be worth arguing with. You simplify too much, and it is boring to debate with such people.

              In any case, in economics and politics, people can never be unanimous simply because our values and interests differ. If I believe in a more co-operative life, as opposed to the competitive and private interest oriented one of capitalism, no argument on economic efficiency you put can convince me that your hard-line capitalism serves my interest. At bottom that is why our views differ. I belive in Socialism; you in a hard type of capitalism. Not much meeting ground.

            • Hegelman

              I take it George Orwell respected Marx because he was sold the idea by the Soviets?

      • Cornelius Bonkers

        I think you mean cr*p

        • Hegelman

          Recently a Russian official, asked why Soviet emblems remained on display in Russia, replied: Ordinary people here have a good opinion of the Soviet era.

          If Communism was no good please explain why it happened. There must have been something wrong with the previous order.

          • Cornelius Bonkers

            Mmmmm; Hegelman your name gives you away. So, every historical movement happens for a (good) reason does it? But your dialectics do you little credit I fear. Clearly Tsarism was a bit dodgy and the grass is always greener and all that. But Leninism/Stalinism was hardly a worthy negation of the extant negation..was it? I don’t think this is what Hegel had in mind..do you?

            • Hegelman

              Ordinary Russians respect Lenin despite fanatical state campaigns to discredit him. I prefer their opinion to yours.

              • Cornelius Bonkers

                Mmmm! More irony? 60 million dead in the camps and of famine and disease is not an opinion but rather a fact! No problem for you?

                • Hegelman

                  The same old tired rubbish.

                  Unfortunately for you that Cold War propaganda trash no longer works simply because the Soviet archives are now available to Russian and Western historians and they have found that the figures for the human losses of Stalinism were grossly inflated by people like Solzhenitsyn and the CIA.

                  Stalin was undoubtedly a brutal killer but the losses from executions and the camps were between 2 and 3 million – a terrible enough figure in itself. The worst human loss of the Stalin era was the 1930s famine in which about 5 million are thought to have died; some historians think the famine was deliberately imposed by Stalin but others say it was the result of blundering agricultural policies.

                  Many of the executions under Stalin were of loyal Bolsheviks, whom Stalin hated and feared more than he hated or feared anyone else.

                  Read a bitterly anti-Soviet historian like Timothy Snyder (US) to check the figures as they have been established from the archives. Google for his article in the New York Review of Books under the title, “Who Killed Most, HItler or Stalin?”

                  Meanwhile one tenth of the population of the Indian province of Bengal – 3 million people – perished in a famine in 1943 when Winston Churchill, after years of draining food out of India, point blank refused to supply relief. In scale that is a far bigger crime than Stalin’s.

                  When the Soviet Union collapsed and Western free market economists forced the destruction of social services in Russia, the death rate went through the roof and there was a holocaust that was as bad or worse than Stalin: this is noted by the famous US sociologist Michael Mann in his book “The Sources of Social Power” (Volume 4).

                  Many countries go thorugh rough patches. Just in the 1960s the US slaughtered about 4 million Vietnamese. Ireland was utterly depopulated under British rule. The native population of Tasmania was wiped out to the last person under Queen Victoria.

                  Russians are not impressed by the old self-interested Western Cold War propganda lies any more. Your luck has run out.

                • Cornelius Bonkers

                  Mmmm! The real Hegelman emerges. At A2 level I think I’d give this something like a B minus for commitment and rage. Internationalism, Stalinism, anti-Westernism, and anti-thinking – well done H, you have the whole set. The values of the herd and the camps are obviously dear to you – I’m truly stunned. Best wishes…And PS, have you ever attended one of Michael Mann’s lectures? Apart from being idealist drivel he is very boring. No wonder your mind is in such a state – spending time on Earth reading his SOURCES OF SOCIAL POWER is enough to do this…

                • Hegelman

                  Well that is about as frank an admission of defeat as the likes of you are ever likely to provide. I can’t ask for more.

                  I have given you an abundance of points and you cannot confront or controvert a single one. Facts and figures and sources have been given.

                  As was said in Shakespeare, If you wish to fight, come to the field today; or if not, when you have stomachs (“Julius Caesar” – Mark Antony speaks).

                  Me a Stalinist? After I called Stalin “a brutal killer” and noted that a very high proportion of those executed by him were the most fervent Old Guard Bolsheviks, whom he hated and feared the most? That shows the quality of your mind.

                  Haplessness once the old confortable claim about 60 million was blown up by the revealed Soviet archives.

                  The Russian Revolution is being rehabilitated and there is nothing that the likes of you can do about it.

                • Cornelius Bonkers

                  “The revealed Soviet archives” yes, probably highly trustworthy as to numbers and persons. And it is of course always OK, necessary even, to “execute” party members that one fears the most. Mmmm! These are such good arguments that the only a good society can come of them. It goes like this: revolution (Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Sartre, Pol Pot); class hatred; (other) class dictatorship; destroy the state; anarchy; tyranny; terror; the liberation of the natural condition of man (born free in a Rousseauian state of nature). And there you have it. Best regards…

                • Hegelman

                  We have to leave it at that. You have no serious argument: merely a spluttering, splenetic, imbecilic gibbering.

                • Cornelius Bonkers

                  Oh H, that’s a shame; I was enjoying our exchange too. Your remark about Sartre could be the topic of further enjoyment if you fancy it??? Best wishes…Oh, and I object to the “splenetic” charge, although of course given the medium we are in I concede that the charge of “spluttering” has some merit…

                • Hegelman

                  As an essayist Sartre has few if any equals. His prose is sardonic and quicksilver and he constantly provides magnificent human portraits in a few lines.

                  Camus, solemn and unable to see individuals, is nothing besides him: except in the bitter and proud profession of faith of the atheist, “The Myth of Sisyphus”. (“I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one’s burden again…It is necessary to imagine Sisyphus as happy.”)

                  But Camus took leave of the exhilaratingly contemptuous Sisyphus early. Sartre stuck it out.

                  His novels catch the preoccupations of the leftwing French intellectuals of the Thirties and Forties, and the one about the defeat of France in 1940 shows us a disintegrating society and anger and bewilderment in the face of a great national calamity and humiliation like few books do. One remembers vivid passages:

                  “The world is going up in smoke and me with it. He fired: he looked at his watch: fourteen minutes and thirty seconds. Nothing more to ask of Fate now except one half-minute. Just enough time to fire at that smart officer, at all the Beauty of the Earth…Beauty dived downwards like some obscene bird. But Mathieu went on firing. He fired. He was cleansed, He was all-powerful. He was free. Fifteen minutes.”

                  Who but Sartre could produce that savage, wry, incomparable line: “Beauty dived downwards like some obscene bird.”

                  ………..

                  “Night, stars, a red glow in the northern sky: some hamlet burning. Eastward, westward, long flashes of heat, sharp, spasmodic: their guns. They’re everywhere. Tomorrow they’s get me.”
                  …………

                  “Above the dead body, above the inert freight van, the darkness wheeled. It alone was living. Tomorrow’s dawn would cover all of them with the same dew. Dead flesh and rusted steel steel would run with the same sweat. Tomorrow the black birds would come.”

                • Cornelius Bonkers

                  Well, that’s better; I’d entirely agree about his stylist leanings although I know little about such things personally. Having said that, as I understand him I’m afraid Sartre must be rated amongst the preeminent public enemies for crusty conservatives (lower case) like me. As a man of the left how do you feel about his support for Stalin and praxis, i.e., Marxism as ” the unsurpassable philosophy of our time”?

                • Hegelman

                  It is a great mistake to think Sartre had much to do with Marxism.

                  He came to it very belatedly and his real grounding was in the dangerously subjectivist German existentialist philosophy of types like Heidegger and Husserl, with the nihilism of Nietzsche thrown in. Marxism was never a nihilist philosophy and unlike existentialism was nothing if not based on economic and social structures.

                  Marxism sought to be objective, in short, and Sartre was subjective.

                  Sartre never had a good grasp of Marxist history, did not read thoroughly the history of the Russian Revolution. His comments on Soviet Russia were erratic; sometimes severely condemnatory, at others preposterously favourable. He was always talking of something he did not know or understand. He severly condemned Stalin, too.

                  Taking Sartre seriously as a Marxist is absurd; it is like mistaking an astrologer for an astronomer.

    • Hegelman

      I suppose you believe in perpetual motion machines, too.

  • Tom M

    If I understand the author’s point of view he is saying that the trickle down theory works. If you start a business then people get hired etc etc. trickle down on account as it were for the employees benefit.
    The awaited profit might or might not happen. If it does happen the presumably it will all trickle down a little faster by business expansion. If it doesn’t some people have benefitted from the trickle for a period untill the money runs out.
    Is that or is it not trickling down? Without putting money in at the top it would never have happened.

    • manofsuffolk

      My thoughts exactly – it seems axiomatic that a new employee of a new company goes out and spends their salary on rent, food, clothes, petrol etc etc which supports jobs and prosperity in those industries as well. If the business is successful, more jobs are created, more taxes are paid and the increased wealth gets spread wider and ‘trickles down’ – what’s so complex about that?

    • Mystified Man

      Those who say “trickle down theory doesn’t work” are using this as a justification for direct wealth distribution via the government, that is the point.

      i.e “You told us that if we kept taxes low then that money would filter down, but it has not. Therefore we advocate that the government intervene to make it trickle down.”

      But no one has ever claimed you would get a more equitable society if you keep taxes low. But by crediting this as a claim you can point to it’s failing and advocate a solution.

      • goodsoldier

        You’re the only one who seems to understand.

    • Hegelman

      Sowell is a joker. He is just pulling your leg.

      By his logic we ought to worship politicians, because they have to fight elections before they win, and often lose.

    • alleagra

      ‘he is saying that the trickle down theory works’ ? Really? For your benefit and that of a few other commenters who rush to comment, the title of the extract from Sowell’s book (recommended) is ‘Why attack ‘trickle-down economics?’ It doesn’t exist ? and never has done’. He can’t be much clearer than that.

  • Trini’s dad

    Yah Bambaclaat Batiman. Me knows me prostate cause trickle down economy. Fight da power! http://prostatecanceruk.org/

  • ManOfKent

    Of course the fallacy of this article is that anyone serious believes that journalists and politicians, particularly those on the left are sufficiently economically numerate or literate to be take seriously when spouting about economic matters when in fact all the evidence tells us that they are not and in fact believe in magic money trees to pay for their delusional social interference.

    • red2black

      Is ‘magic money trees’ the same as Quantitative Easing?

      • Purple Commoner

        Magic money trees exist. Keynes.

        • red2black

          Thanks for that. Time to read up.

  • ButcombeMan

    That will be the legions of “recognized economists” who missed the (mid 2000s) approaching global crash then?

    Who is he kidding? Why is he here, allowed to advertise his book (which on the basis of this effort, I certainly do not want in my bookshelf)

    I never met an economist who had any basic common sense.

    We are governed by lots of those who did a PPE at a posh university.

    Much good did it do them (and us),

    • Mystified Man

      Know your subject before attacking it.

      I remember Thomas Sowell warning about the dangers in sub-prime mortgages before there were mass defaults. He was one of the few to swim against the tide and hence gets very little coverage in the mainstream media.

      • Hegelman

        Who made the money?

      • ButcombeMan

        I also do not agree with his view on trickle down.

        It does work.

        If, just through the sweat of his brow, one man, by working harder than his peers , creates extra value, an excess of production for his personal need and is able to convert that excess to his own benefit by buying the goods or services of another, (that without the excess he has just earned for himself-he would not buy) that is basic “trickle down” in operation.

        The first man is more comfortable, better fed or whatever, the second is more comfortable better fed or whatever by being employed

    • Mystified Man

      Here is Sowell speaking about the US housing boom and bust

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GoAGuTIbVY

    • The Masked Marvel

      Sowell is no Oxbridge PPE clone. He went Harvard, but before it was corrupted by the Larry Summers uber-Keynesians, who spawned Miliband and Balls (and their shared bike). Some did see the global crash coming, but politicians silenced them and ignored them in favour of more government policies. Sowell is no Krugman or Blanchflower, either.

      Read a few of Sowell’s TownHall.com columns and decide for yourself if he has any common sense.

      http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/

      • ButcombeMan

        I am not commenting on him personally so much as his silly use of the phrase “recognized economists” as if that phrase has serious meaning & we should worship at their knee and assume they knew what they were talking about. Most did not.. Most do not.

        Most of them got the advancing bubble very wrong,

        I pay no attention to them . One or two I rate, Jeff Randall for example.

        • Mystified Man

          There were plenty of Austrian economists that were spot on in their predictions of the housing collapse in the US and the domino effect it had on securitized financial products. However, at the time, most of these people were denied a significant platform to make their voices heard. On the rare occasions that they were given platform; it fell on deaf ears.

          • Hegelman

            Who made the profits?

          • red2black

            I’m not an economist, but it seems ‘left’ economists predicted the US housing collapse as well. Did their warnings fall on deaf ears as well? socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/austrians-predicted-housing-bubble-but.html

        • The Masked Marvel

          Okay, fair-ish point.

      • Hegelman

        Read Karl Marx and decide if he has any common sense.

        • The Masked Marvel

          I have. Some of it was common sense in a different period of history in an entirely different set of circumstances. But not the main goal, or the main features of the philosophy. And it’s certainly been a recipe for disaster when tried on any kind of scale. I’ve also read Chernyshevsky and Pisarev, so you can’t fool me.

          • Hegelman

            Thanks to the deadly challenge to the capitalist system posed by Communism, capitalism was forced to reform and adopt the welfare state.

            The working class would have revolted in the 1940s and 1950s had this not happened. Now when the working class movement has died, the welfare state is being dismantled from day to day.

            But it’s nice to meet someone who reads good old Chernyshevsky (did or did not Lopukin….?) and Pisarev. I endlessly admire that generation of Russian revolutionary thinkers. Dobrolyubov! Tkachev! Lavrov !Bakunin ! Herzen ! Petrashevsky (who was an early mentor of Dostoevsky), Belinsky! Plekhanov!

            What giants !

            People who think Bolshevism was the work of Jews should know about these pukka Russians who founded the revolutionary movement in Russia.

            • The Masked Marvel

              Calm down, dear. We’re not going back to the Victorian Era or a feudal system. There will not be millions left starving in the streets. You’ll have to look to countries run by people who agree with you for that. Venezuelans and the citizens of Zimbabwe, for example, are ever so grateful for that deadly challenge, don’t you think?

              • Hegelman

                “Calm down, dear. We’re not going back to the Victorian Era or a feudal system.”

                Yes, thanks to Socialism. But we ARE going back to the Victorian age. On the streets in King’s Cross they know it. If you survive on Food banks and lose your disability benefit, there is nowhere but the gutter.

              • Hegelman

                In any case, in economics and politics, people can never be unanimous simply because our values and interests differ. If I believe in a more co-operative life, as opposed to the competitive and private interest oriented one of capitalism, no argument on economic efficiency you put can convince me that your hard-line capitalism serves my interest. At
                bottom that is why our views differ. I belive in Socialism; you in a hard type of capitalism. Not much meeting ground.

              • Hegelman

                “Calm down, dear. We’re not going back to the Victorian Era or a feudal system.”

                Yes,thanks to Socialism. But we ARE going back to the Victorian age. On the streets in King’s Cross they know it. If you survive on Food Banks and lose your disability benefit, there is nowhere but the gutter.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  What a sad, dark world you live in. It’s not thanks to Socialism, it’s thanks to prosperity created by various attempts at free market Capitalism, a system which has brought infinitely more of humanity out of poverty than any version of your ideology. There is more prosperity now to support those in need, although there are far too many people on support who don’t really need to be. Yet to people like you, making sure able-bodied people get back into work is equivalent to taking food out of starving children’s mouths and kicking blind beggars in the street.

                  Nobody actually disabled is going to lose their benefits. You’ve been listening to too much BBC ‘journalism’. Fat people are not starving. People with Xboxes and flat-screen TVs, expensive tattoos, and the latest mobile phones are not Oliver Twist or Tiny Tim.

                • Hegelman

                  “Nobody actually disabled is going to lose their benefits. You’ve been listening to too much BBC ‘journalism”

                  It comes down to that flat denialism in the end. The disabled do lose their benefits. Some have committed suicide.

                  In the nineteenth century they said the poor were after all better off than in the Stone Age.

                  I am glad to have forced you down to this level of candour. We now know where you stand.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  No, they haven’t. Where is your evidence? You’d better have a lot of it for such an outrageous claim to back up your emotional blackmail. A single outlier isn’t going to do it.

                  The 19th Century, as I keep telling you, is in the past. This is typical far-Left behavior, really. The only possible reason I might not agree with you on everything is because I’m evil. Emotions over reason.

  • edlancey

    Tipping, or Americans feigning politeness for cash, is more or less trickle-down economics.