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Guardian Unlimited: Sport blog: It takes a bad loser to become a good winner
The Wayback Machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20080113021424/http://blogs.guardian.co.uk:80/sport/2007/11/10/it_takes_a_bad_loser_to_become.html
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David Lacey

It takes a bad loser to become a good winner

Ferguson's sour grapes last weekend showed just how much great managers struggle to accept defeat.

David Lacey

November 10, 2007 12:26 AM

Whoever first came up with the notion that "you don't have to be mad to work here but it helps" possibly had football managers in mind. Not that managers are certifiable. It is just that in extreme moments they can give the impression of being short of a few studs.

Gordon Strachan is normally worth listening to for his knowledge of the game allied to a nice line in dry wit. But last week the Celtic manager rounded on reporters who had interpreted favourable comments about David Weir as a sign that he was interested in the Rangers player and said they reminded him of serial killers in films who sent out messages like "I'm going to get you" or "your wife is next". Even by Old Firm standards of heady rhetoric this was surely stretching things a bit.

Away from the final whistle Sir Alex Ferguson is an absorbing football raconteur and the epitome of rational thought, but after Manchester United had been denied a significant victory at the Emirates last Sunday by Arsenal's late equaliser Fergie erupted as predictably as Mount Etna. He could hardly blame the referee, Howard Webb, for making the correct decision - on a linesman's signal - that William Gallas's shot had crossed the goalline before Edwin van der Sar intervened. Nevertheless Ferguson still had a go at Webb for not spotting a foul on Louis Saha beforehand, said that at times the referee had favoured Arsenal, and just for good measure complained about the abuse he alleged the United bench received from some home fans.

Impugning a match official's integrity is cheap if not downright slanderous. As for being called rude names by the crowd, well, here it needs to be understood that Ferguson had a sheltered upbringing having been born in Govan, an area of Glasgow renowned for its gentility and moderation of language, where being described as a "soppy date" would be grounds for counselling.

Had Manchester United won on Saturday it is doubtful whether the volcano would have exploded. Fergie is just a bad loser (or drawer) and for that United should be grateful. Old Trafford would not have seen nine Premier League titles, a Champions League triumph and a clutter of cups if its manager of the last 21 years had greeted disappointing results with a shrug and a smile. Bad losers often make good winners.

On a manager's reaction to a defeat, and how his players react to that reaction, can depend the success or failure of a season. Another winner, Arsène Wenger, is usually coolness itself after a game whatever the outcome, but after Arsenal had lost to Chelsea two seasons ago he associated the referee and an assistant "in the same team - the Chelsea team". The linesman concerned, Darren Cann, had wrongly disallowed a goal by Robin van Persie and then in last season's Carling Cup final against Chelsea was partly responsible for Emmanuel Adebayor being sent off, whereupon Wenger said he was "a liar". On Sunday, however, the Arsenal manager congratulated Cann for getting Gallas's goal right.

Jose Mourinho, late of Chelsea, went further than Ferguson or Wenger when in the wake of a Champions League defeat by Barcelona that saw Didier Drogba sent off he implied there had been a half-time conversation between Frank Rijkaard, the Barça coach, and the Swedish referee, Anders Frisk. Frisk said they had not discussed the match but he still received death threats and retired from refereeing. On that occasion Mourinho's behaviour appeared reprehensible but Roman Abramovich's millions alone would not have brought Chelsea two Premier League championships if their manager had suffered defeats gladly.

Bill Shankly was one of the worst losers in the game's history. His Liverpool teams never lost, they just scored fewer goals. Maybe the Kop would like to see a bit of Shanks in the present manager. Compare the reaction of Rafael Benítez to Arsenal's late equaliser the previous weekend to Fergie's rant last Sunday. "If you analyse the whole game," said a sweetly reasonable Benítez, "then you have to say they deserved to score." Shankly would have called Arsenal "a bunch of fancy men".

Perhaps the trick is to present a benign countenance to the cameras while keeping the inner rage stoked up for the privacy of the training ground. After Sunderland had lost recently an interviewer asked Roy Keane why he seemed so relaxed about it all. "Never judge a book by its cover," Keane responded with just the hint of a glint.

An aide to General George S Patton once told him that his men never knew when old blood-and-guts was being serious or just acting. Patton replied that he hoped they never found out. He would have done well in the Premier League.

Comments

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Belgrade/srb

David

I'd rather sympathise with someone who is both a bad loser and a bad winner than with a bad loser who puts a good face on every time he wins.

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Grave/nld

Miro, I think its Wenger you are reffering to otherwise, I will start respecting you even less for not seeing it - the preliminary symptoms of Arsenisim!

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Manchester/gbr

I don't buy this at all. Anyone in sport learns to deal with defeat and bad losers (really bad losers) are soon sorted out at school level by their team-mates or the opposition.

The reaction to defeat is a key to working towards success in the future (isn't this what everyone says about players?) so why shouldn't the managers' reaction be the same? They react the way they do and say what they do in order to intimidate referees in the future. The marginal decisions by referees are as much instinct as calm judgement and that instinct has elements of fear and self-preservation in it - SAF knows that and works on it more than most.

The players have to be given leeway, but managers and coaches are older, not physically involved and should show a bit of leadership. With that ranting intimidation, after a warning, they should be sent to the stands for the match, banned for 5 matches for a second offence and a season for a third. The LMA and FA could easily write a Code of Conduct for post-match interviews with similar penalties. It would stop the rants instantly.

No other profession would put up with workplace bullying the way refs do - they should find a way to bring suit, because they would win.

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Milan/ita

I agree with MotM, Fergie was just trying on the old trick of accusing everyone else of getting away with what you've just done yourself. The big Italian teams do this routinely; it's a way of preparing for the next crunch match and keeping officials scared of the people that have the loudest voice.

He's just being a bully.

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Belgrade/srb

Shalik

Is it a pure coincidence that ARSENal, ARSENe and ARSENic are the words with a common root?

We know a lot about the former two, but what's about ARSENic, a highly poisonous metallic element which compounds are used in insecticides, weed killers, solid-state doping agents, and various alloys?

Elemental arsenic and arsenic compounds are classified as "toxic" and "dangerous for the environment" in the European Union under directive 67/548/EEC.

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Chennai/ind

Phrases not usually attributable to Sir Alex "the gracious loser" Ferguson:

"A draw was a fair result today"

"We lost to a better side today"

"We had a bit of luck with the decisions in this match"

"I'm not sure that was a penalty, actually"

"You have to abide by the referee's decisions"

"I'm not sure"

"Um"

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Milan/ita

Also, what do we mean by "good-winner"? Someone that's very successful or someone that wins with "good-grace"?

Is winning well as important to sporting values as not being a bad loser?

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London/gbr

Being a good winner (and good loser) doesn't seem to have harmed Roger or Tiger nor plenty of others.

(And if anyone comes up with the odd instance of poor behaviour from those two, they have spent pretty much ten years in the eye of a camera - no wonder there are occasional lapses).

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London/gbr

Ferguson's outbursts are not passionate tantrums they are sang-froid calculations based on the correct assumption that he now has so much influence that constant bullying and sniping of officialdom results in an incremental advantage to his team. Therefore he indulges in it.

The football authorities are shamefully negligent in their support of match officials. They allow disgracefully disrespectful behaviour and appalling insinuations to be made by players and managers alike without rebuke.

And I'm afraid that,in Alan Green and other commentators, even the BBC condones repeated unwarranted but highly damaging and invidious public attacks and criticism of referees and linesmen.

It's time for people such as Alan Green to admit that his highly-charged emotional and populist, prejudiced instant view of an match incident is far more often wrong than the sober, professional judgement of a trained match official. And even when an official is wrong, he or she is right because the laws of the game call for his or her judgement - not Sky's five-minute vox-pop of the incident played from six different angles.

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Manchester/gbr

Fair points about Fergie; he's a wretched loser and has plenty of victories to support a case for saying this trait is part of what makes him successful.

That said, it can't be denied that it also makes him an unpleasant ARSE (note the word, miro) on the whole. His complaint about Arsenal's goal was so lame it was embarrassing; play went on for an age after the 'incident'.

One thing that should also be said, with reference to Lacey declaring Fergie to be "an absorbing football raconteur". How can you be lauded as such when you maintain a pathetic, false victimisation 'silence' in post-match reflections to the BBC? The blog today celebrates another gobshite at Pompey who adopts the same stance; IMO they're a disgrace. The audacity of the BBC; exposing nepotism and daring to speak ill of Lord Fergie's cosy little family gravy train.

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London/gbr

In a response to an article written earlier this week, someone said " Ferguson is a pig."
Enough said.

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Tianjin/chn

So,before putting his pen on the paper , what the author has in his mind is we often natrually see bad loser and good winner as from two different world .
In constrast to that , we all know there is no clear boundary between the two sides .
such a bad loser as Ferguson , he knows all the tricks to pretend a Bad-Temper loser , so the rest will fall into the trap .
A bad loser must show his anger on and off the pitch about every detail disagreeing with his beforehand caculation and
maybe gesticulates a bit more than proper ,like targetting a bottle at your players forehead , all blowing up all of them before the next conceded goal .
However after doing that , being exposed to the whole world , come the most important core featuring the great bad loser, cooling himself down , and reflecting on every moment in the lost match . He will be disgusted pretty much everytime he loses a match ,so he dose more work than previously , make a bigger improvement , and do not mainly blame his players for the losing .

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Reykjavik/isl

It's tempting to say bad losers make great winners, but not really true. It's just a reflection on human variety - for every Jimmy Connors there was a Stefan Edberg.

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Oxford/gbr

Bullies are never gracious in defeat. Ferguson is an arrogant and nausiating man who hase been around for an eternity. He can't let go and such is his prediliction with power he thinks he's immortal and that everyone else should think that too. I don't believe this is a 'public personna' he's been about too long - no, he a bully and a very bad loser - not nice at all - he's probably a fair reflection of his beloved NuLabUK Ltd in personal mode!

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Sheffield/gbr

Good article. Not quite perfect - as some have alluded, bad losers make winners - but not necessarily good winners. However, Ferguson's success does seem partly due to convincing his players that the whole world is against them and they must always fight against that injustice.

Miro - after Napoleon Bonaparte died they found traces of arsenic in his hair. Was he poisoned? Or was it because arsenic was commonly present in French wallpaper at the time?

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Toronto/can


When Monty Python had the Greek Philosophers playing the German Philosophers ("he is seriously thinking of making a move")a definate switch to the cebral was evolving (Now we've moved on to rotating)
Meanwhile Freud today could have his work cut out for him.Ferguson and Mourinho.Who could possibly win the Super Ego of the year award?
In reality there is no absolute on winners and losers.Some Im sure make up their own perceived deficiencies with needing to win just as others see pride for themselves wanting a win,but it gets a little iffy when you see these Harrods clad executives on the sidelines jumping up and down screaming for their mummys.I'd rather they sat there and sucked their thumbs until the mess was over.

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Milan/ita

This for my friend offside (I really couldn't help :D):

...so Domenech is the best coach ever seen on Earth...


I am waiting for the unmissable reply... ;P

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Maysha
a direct quote from Fergsuon last saturday at Emirates with reference to the Gallas goal in 93rd minute "we thought that the ball was over the line".
This was immediately after the game , not after seeing 5 replays. still, that doesn't make such a good story, does it ?

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Wow, I'm in exalted company today. So many of today's bloggers personally know Fergie. What a small world we live in when they all turn up on the same page on the same day. All those charities that benefit from work done by the man must be preparing to send back the money forthwith, now they know what a terrible person he is.

Bad loser, official, media and player manipulator, so what. Be honest with yourself, you'd have him at your club in a heartbeat and you know it

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London/gbr

Jimbo - er No.

Go back 21 years and Everton were in the middle of their greatest ever run of football. If you were to have given me a crystal ball in Autumn 1986 and said, "Here is SAF. Here's what he will bring to your Club. And this is the price you will pay". I'd have said No.

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Salisbury/gbr

I can't believe that people on this site thing that Arch Whinger is a better loser than SAF a true great who has won the Champions League. Pizza anyone?

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Salisbury/gbr

Oh hang on they don't do lemon topping do they. Why are Arsenal fans so bitter? Is it because they are a smaller club. Than Newcastle.

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Mouth,

Twenty one years ago! Fair enough. But we are in the here and now. The most successful Premier League manager of all time is Fergie, warts and all. David Moyes seems to be a fine manager doing a fine job. if you prefer a fine manager to a proven great of the game, then you've made your point.

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London/gbr

scholes:

not one blogger has said the Wenger is a better loser than SAF. The bitterness and paranoia is coming from one direction.

A discussion about who the better loser is would be tedious.

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Birmingham/gbr

Maysha surfaces when fergie/united are slated shocker!

excellent post maysha and heres me thinking he tries to be objective and honest as much as possible. Countless times fergie has come out and said we have had luck/that we shouldnt have had a penalty (chelsea this season)/that we should have conceded a penalty (sheff utd, heinzes mawling of fwd) etc etc.

Your childish rants are boring give us all a break

the article refers to him being a bad loser per se - which indeed he is - but you show me a successful manager who isnt!

Have you heard post-match interviews with southgate, hutchings, sanchez, sammy lee......

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London/gbr

Jimbo - It's all that has come with SAF's success: the megastores, the shirt sales, the Far East fanbase; the feuds; the club as PLC; the constant biggest club in the world stuff; the evisceration of the FA Cup with the pull-out (I could go on, but you get the picture). SAF has been at the heart of that and I just don't think that's a price worth paying for all the Titles and the one CL.

On balance then, would I want Everton to be Man Utd? No.

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Birmingham/gbr

HoM

What price to pay?? No comprendez?

course you'd have had fergie, give me a break - kendall was a class act right? Royle?

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Birmingham/gbr

Mouth

Your ramblings are less than humerous. What you mention is a product of success in the market, and how a ltd company capitalises on footballing success in order to breed financil security. Your post just doesnt make sense - this has happened with all successful clubs world-wide and has nothing whatsoever to do with fergie. At times during his reign we have been the biggest (certainly the richest) club in the world, whats your issue with that?

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London/gbr

Sleepwalker - It is often said that SAF has ruled the club, so he is complicit in the decisions that produced that baggage (which I don't think is the case at all successful clubs).

The statement was made that we would all want SAF at our clubs - well, if it's SAF + baggage, my answer is No.

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Mouth,

Its all relative, all of those things come to clubs which are successful like it or not. Are you actually really and truly glad that Rooney went to a currently bigger club with more success. Everton would have done everything within its power to retain him.

You will find that throughout history most of the "haves" of this world have done something to get ahead or stay ahead of which, upon reflection, they should not really be proud of. Our society practically encourages such behaviour. I find it as unfortunate as you do, I really do, however I happen to support United and it makes me feel very good when they win.

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Also the question was put to everyone and so far only one person has said no, I would think that this falls in a statistical margin of error of give or take 1 or 2% regarding my asking of that question.

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London/gbr

jimbo - that's your prerogative and a supporter is exactly that through thick and thin.

It's also why I'm keen to see the Big Four lose in the CL as much as possible. I want my team (and others) to compete on as level a playing field as possible.

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Thanks Mouth,

I am very keen to see Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea lose as much as possible too. Believe it or not I would love to see Everton or even Citeh get into the CL. From what I have seen so far this year there are more than four teams with the potential to make it this year. The more 'pool stay with their sit on it and rotate policy the better for the teams in and around them on the table.

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Manchester/gbr

jimbo
you're view of statistical analysis is novel if nothing else but I take your point.

I'll join MotM in honestly saying no.

And let's get back to the Champions league meaning just that, only Champions enter it. Yes, I know TV will never allow it but what football fan could deny it would be better?

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London/gbr

Which American said "that a good loser is just a loser"??

I think that above quote can rightly be attributed to both SAF and AW, both men, said some of the most ridiculos things to excuse why their team was poor on that particular day, ranging from the ref was biased, the players were too rough, the pitich was awful, our kit made us "blind"(i could go on but you get the picture)

However these 2 men have also given praise to other teams and to other managers, but its never newsworthy, the media journos, want us all to see the image of AW and SAF being 2 great geniuses but bad losers, and that sells more newspapers, and gets more bloggers(like myself)fair enough a mans gotta eat.

I will say one thing, SAF ridiculos rant about the security at the Emirates and the fans "abuse" was just the funniest and stupidest thing ive heard come out of this "mans" mouth, its obvious he was seething that his team couldnt hold onto to the lead, so why not just come out and admit that??

Can a football manager be successful and still be a good loser like Stuart Pearce or Aidy Boothroyd were??

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Manchester/gbr

"It's all that has come with SAF's success: the megastores, the shirt sales, the Far East fanbase; the feuds; the club as PLC."

Sir Ferguson's success is the result of the above rather than vice versa, the reserve army of exploitable, tat-buying nerds was already there waiting to be marketed to, the result of that was inevitably going to manifest itself on the pitch at some stage.

Still, credit where it's due, he's responsible for the feuds.


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As far as I am concerned, it is a pot calling the kettle black.

Definitely Wenger is much cooler than Ferguson but he is not stingy with his criticisms of match officials when the decisions don't go his way.

He also has selective blindness when it comes to fouls committed by his players but his blind spots have improved of late.

Actually, when it comes to whining, both of them are nowhere near Mourinho who caused a certain referee to settle for an early retirement.

John
SoccerNet Live

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Belgrade/srb

As far as I can remember, the PL has never been The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

The old First Division, however, was an entirely different story.

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Dublin/irl

Firstly.. United did not lose it was a draw.. secondly.. Of course Fergie was annoyed his team just drew with a small club.

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Belgrade/srb

What makes the difference between a good loser and a bad winner?

a. the former's job is on the line and the latter's likely not?
b. the latter is popular where it matters.
c. a bad winner is rarely a good loser while a good loser rarely gets a chance to demonstrate what a bloody good winner he could be.

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Uppsala/swe

Roy 16....
You might be from Dublin but your heart is obviously in Aylesbury, or some such town. Your arrogant use of the term "small club" just goes to show why we all love the Buckinghamshire Boys so much.
An open challenge: If there is ANY ManU fan out there who is actually from Manchester, come forward and make yourself known!!

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Dublin/irl

shedendexile
November 10, 2007 5:36 PM
Uppsala/swe Roy 16....
You might be from Dublin but your heart is obviously in Aylesbury, or some such town. Your arrogant use of the term "small club" just goes to show why we all love the Buckinghamshire Boys so much.
An open challenge: If there is ANY ManU fan out there who is actually from Manchester, come forward and make yourself known!!


LOL. OK first let me say I was joking as to see how many Gunners would reply. It really was a joke as many Gunner bloggers on here would have copped on to it but there is always one.. And on your point about me in Dublin, I am not in Dublin actually thats just what comes up with my name. And if I am not mistaken it comes up with your name that your in Sweden?? Silly me for thinking that anyone that wonders where all the man united fans are from might be a gunner not in London?

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Moorefield/usa

Roy16,

You DO know what the Shed End is, right?* So just WHY would a gooner call themselves "shedendexile"?

*Hint, it's not in North London.

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Dublin/irl

extraordinaryrvanp
November 10, 2007 7:07 PM
Moorefield/usa Roy16,

You DO know what the Shed End is, right?* So just WHY would a gooner call themselves "shedendexile"?

*Hint, it's not in North London.


LOL I know. Can you not guess why I said he was a gunner. Think about it.

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Moorefield/usa

Nope, perhaps I'm having one of my "stoopid" days. Explain, s'il vous plait.

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Dublin/irl

extraordinaryrvanp
November 10, 2007 7:23 PM
Moorefield/usa Nope, perhaps I'm having one of my "stoopid" days. Explain, s'il vous plait.

Because he is a Chelsea fan,and I was trying to get a reaction again..Never mind its probably me, Just bored with this stupid blog, and in my small mind I thought it was funny. We all have off days.:0(

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Belgrade/srb

extraordinary/Roy

Being overly critical of yourself is distracting and, over time, can undermine your commitment and your underlying beliefs.

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Salisbury/gbr

SHEDENDELNLARGEMENT it may not have occured to you that most of the mancunean Manchester United fans do not read the guardian.

That would be your well to do 'traditional' Chelsea fans like yourself

I would guess they are more likely to read a tabloid

Next time I am at Old Trafford I will try to do a survey at half time

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Salisbury/gbr

Get in there Roy16 I'll cover you with some distracting comments and you can go in for the kill

I liked your comment personally but then again Miro is always worth reading as well

He always original thats for sure

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Dublin/irl

miro
November 10, 2007 7:45 PM
Belgrade/srb extraordinary/Roy

Being overly critical of yourself is distracting and, over time, can undermine your commitment and your underlying beliefs.

I think it says more of this blog than anything else.

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Hull/gbr

Sorry but Fergie just thrives on hatred that he creates- he wants the number of foreigners reduced - just how many English players did he play against Kiev?

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Toronto/can

When you re talking about the winners .. there s only one place to look http://www.razbet.com/
Every day ... a new one !

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Dublin/irl

scholesthemighty

Its just one of those days. You are right about Miro he is well worth a read (Dont tell him I said that) Anyway on the Fergie / Wenger issue, if they were not at each other all the time it would be boring. Imagne this...Fergie after the game..We were really lucky against Arsenal today they were the better team all over the pitch and the ref handled it really well, we should have had at least 2 players red carded but I thank the ref for giving us a chance. And those wonderful Arsenal fans were also correct to shout at me, I did deserve it, I wish to apologise to them if I annoyed them in anyway... Wenger replies.. Sir Alex is to kind,thank you sir Alex for your lovely comments, I think United were the best team and that we were lucky to get a point. We also should have had players sent off but as sir Alex pointed out the ref was first class again today. Those lovely United fans were singing some wonderful songs about me I must get them to send me the words so I can get my players to sing them when we are out having fun. Then both managers hug each other and head off for a nice bottle of wine. Now which would we all prefer???

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Salisbury/gbr

Too right Roy16 I keep going about about an excellent book called 'A Season With Verona' where an englishman Tim Parks travels round with the notorious Verona fans who turn out to be not that bad after all......there is a brilliant chapter in the book where he describes the perfest politically correct football match.........and how bloody boring it would be. It's really funny and the rest of the book is compulsive reading as well as his team try to avoid the drop. A true life thriller.

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Salisbury/gbr

I still think that Fergie is misunderstood though and Wenger is a moaning git. I mean have you TRIED playing in a grey strip when it's cloudy?

Honestly

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Manchester/gbr

shedendexile - now you go and embarrass yourself with all that crap about United fans. I see MultiD was back on moaning without at least exhorting voilence, thanks Multi.
I think this blog was written by Mr Lacey just to porvoke the anti-Ferg bile. It seems to have succeeded.
Mouth - respect your opinion pal, its your club. As to what happened to United along the way, well, without it, I dont suppose we would have won what we have, so most accept it. The model seems to have been adopted by plenty in the EPL -even RealMadrid used it some extent in the acquisition of Beckham.

There are plenty of United fans who willput upwith Ferg - it goes with the winning of alltrophies. God forbid we had a nice guy like Curbishley.

By the way, I forget who the scumbag is who posted it, but dont mention Property magnet (perhaps thats who Mawal is) and general all round barrow boy Redknapp alongside Ferguson. Perlease.

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Papeete/pyf

Guest,

ma che cosa dice?

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London/gbr

I don't know much about winners losers good bad or otherwise and whether any particular mix is pertinent to success failure job loss or retirement. But I know this. I have recently watched a Union rugby world cup with tv assisted decisions and not for a second did I lose interest or experience a loss in match tension but more importantly I didn't watch the rest of the game suffering grievance at human decision made wrong. Test cricket for years now. Same as. I watched with increasing enjoyment, this morning, the highlights of the third GB Kiwi rugby league game and watched fascinated as important scores were rendered illegal or passed fit for result consumption by replays sourced out to an independent adjudicator.
Now, on the radio, what have I heard ? Steve Bruce lamenting a referee, who has in one split second, in one tiny spasm of motion made a decision, wrong or right, that affects a game and everybodys enjoyment.
Either
1) send managers on a referee course , film them and analyse how they do. Show them the results and then ask them to shut the fuck up. or
2) introduce outside tv arbitrators of contentious calls and be done with the poxy crappy conversations between rival managers, fans, and bloggers.

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Steve Bucknor

Mike Selvey
After Steve Bucknor, whom next will international cricketers bully out of a job?

The Fiver
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