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on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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For additionnal references, please see here:
Oxfordindex
,
Universalis
,
Treccani
,
Highbeam
,
Jstor
--
DDupard
(
talk
) 09:02, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
User:DDupard
, you have recently added two citations of
https://sites.google.com/site/academiejulian/
which you labelled as "Academie Julian site". I am concerned that this may self-published and thus potentially unreliable, per
WP:Verifiability#Self-published sources
. I can see no indication of an author or a publisher other than
copyrightⓒvallin2010
. It is suspicious that the opening paragraph of the
home page
is identical to that in
fr:Academie Julian
. This paragraph
was added to French Wikipeda
in 2006, before the copyright date of the suspect website, but it is possible that they were both copied from a common source. Because of this I am unhappy about using this site as a source. Its list of
Eleves et professeurs
might have been copied from Wikipedia, making it a
Wikipedia mirror
not suitable for citing. Can you reassure me about this site? If it can be shown to be by an author or institution with a good reputation in the field then it is citeable even if it is a blog. Otherwise I think we should either delete the citations or tag them with
Template:Self-published source
,
Template:Self-published inline
,
Template:Unreliable source?
or
Template:Better source
. See
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources
. Thank you for your work on this article.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 22:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Academie Julian was active for a hundred years, quite a number of students have passed through the place. For a proper contribution one needs to be abble to access information; Oxford-Index for example, only gives partial content to the browser, one has to be registered to access full info. As far as the website is concerned, I have no information about its authors, nor have I "suspicions" of any sorts.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 06:44, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- User:DDupard
, I have free access to
Oxford Art Online
, including the full Benezit articles, through a UK public library membership. If you are not a UK resident then you may be able to access it through
The Wikipedia Library
. I have checked a few (not all) of the citations that you have added, hence some of the tags that I have added recently. Regarding the academiejulian website, I think it is not a full Wikipedia mirror, and is derived from sources other than Wikipedia. Its list of students appears to be longer than those on English or French Wikipedia. However, it is a self-published source, and I will tag it as such. Where possible please cite sources that are clearly reputable, and if you cite a self-published source then tag it as such.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 10:28, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Verbcatcher
At the bottom of this page
[3]
it states: "Liste etablie d'apres les documents deposes aux archives nationales et references 63 AS, Fonds de l’Academie Julian.", copyright ≪?vallin?≫ , profile here
[4]
archives here
[5]
or
[6]
. It should then be considered a primary source quite appropriate for a list.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 16:02, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Furthermore, the splitting of the article does not seem to fit the framework of a trans-wiki lay out norm for 26 different languages on this international encyclopedia.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 16:10, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- User:DDupard
, The documents in the French National Archive are a
primary source
, and as such are
not
suitable as a source. The academiejulian webpage is a secondary source, and is better for citing. If you have correctly identified "vallin" as Gerard Vallin, a director of ESAG Penninghen (the successor institution to the Academie Julian) then the perceived reliability of the website is enhanced.
WP:USERGENERATED
says
"Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications."
My brief web search didn't find any publications by Vallin, but I feel that his job should be adequate justification. I will change the tags from
Template:Self-published inline
to
Template:Self-published source
with
|expert=y
which has the effect of moving the notice from the main text to the reference and removes the citation from
Category:Accuracy disputes
. It is merely a note that a better source such as Benezit would be preferred.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 17:21, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- User:DDupard
, is there a Wikipedia initiative to coordinate the structure of articles in all 294
Wikipedias
? That would be a Herculean task. None of the articles in
Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style
look likely to give guidance on this. I based the name and layout of the list article on the
List of people associated with the London School of Economics
. This is a common arrangement: see the articles in the subcategories of
Category:Lists of people by university or college
. The decision on whether include lists in an article will depend on the size of the lists and on the importance of the lists in the context of the parent article.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 17:51, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
See the discussion in
Talk:Academie Julian#Lists of notable professors and students
.
User:DDupard
, as the lists are here we can be more expansive in their format. I favour a sortable table, and propose the following format, with separate tables for faculty and alumni This is clearer for our readers, and gives more information. I am prepared to convert this current list into this format. What do you think?
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 19:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 19:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- I think that grouping by nationality, illustrates the global reaching of the "academie", and the worldwide interest. If that could be part of your scheme, then fine. I like the inclusion of dates. Could there be an additional column for the ref, like here
[7]
(more or less) which was my reason for asking technical help, --
DDupard
(
talk
) 19:20, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- With the current format you can group by nationality by clicking on the triangles in the column header. We can make the default sorting in any order (set by the order in the raw text), but sorting by name is conventional in lists of people. We can easily move the references to a separate column; there is little point where this is just a number but it would be tidier where there is a message tag.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 19:36, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
User:DDupard
, you have renamed theis page from
List of people associated with the Academie Julian
to
List of faculty and alumni from the Academie Julian.
I see the following problems:
- It is unusual to end a page name with a full stop.
- It should be
of the
, not
from the
.
- The name does not match any the usual formats for equivalent list articles, see
Category:Lists of people by university or college in France
and
Category:Lists of people by university or college in the United States
.
I was happy with the original name, or we could have
List of Academie Julian people
Should we use
faculty
,
professors
or
teachers
, and
alumni
,
students
or
artists
?
Faculty
and
alumni
are mainly US English not British English, but that does not rule them out. In British English and to a leser extent in US English
professor
means a senior teacher, while in French I think
professeur
does not imply seniority. We should not have
artists
for the alumni because the teachers were also artists and some students may be best known in other fields. I favour
teachers
and
students
.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 19:44, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- I have already mentionned?: Enough disorganisation. Please leave it alone, it is fine as is. "People" is vague and generic . --
DDupard
(
talk
) 19:55, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Sorry, corrected the full stop, but cannot proceed with "List of faculty and alumni of the Academie Julian" , which should, indeed be the proper title. My apologies.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 20:50, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- I have requested the move at
Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests
, see
WP:RM#TR
.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 21:00, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Perfect, thanks, It's getting late here, should go--
DDupard
(
talk
) 21:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
Dear
Verbcatcher
, I trust that you are going to craft a beautiful page, judging by the glimpse you offered above. I am going to be traveling for the next two weeks with only mobile device access to wikipedia. So best to you --
DDupard
(
talk
) 07:45, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
Following the discussion in this talk page and in
Talk:Academie Julian#Lists of notable professors and students
, I am removing the following names from the list of notable professors, on the basis that they are not linked to Wikipedia articles in any language.
They should be restored to the list if
notability
and their status as professors is established.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 14:27, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Thank you for creating
Robert Pougheon
; I have made a couple of edits. You have not cited a source for him teaching at the Academie Julian. Can you locate one?
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 22:08, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Also, you mention Art Deco in the
See Also
and the bibliography, but not in the main text. Should he be in
Category:Art Deco artists
?
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 22:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
Following the discussion in this talk page and in
Talk:Academie Julian#Lists of notable professors and students
, I am removing the following names from the list of notable students, on the basis that they are not linked to Wikipedia articles in any language. I have retained
Takeshiro Kanokogi
as he is sourced to the authoritative
Benezit Dictionary of Artists
.
- Armenia
(Ottoman Empire)
- Canada
- France
- Hungary
- Norway
- Poland
- Switzerland
Switzerland
- United States
They should be restored to the list if
notability
and there status as students is established.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 15:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
User:DDupard
, I think that
Лопух?на Мар?амна Андр?ан?вна
?[
uk
]
and
Станкевич Соф?я
?[
uk
]
should be listed with their names in the Latin alphabet.
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Proper names
says that this should be done for placenames, but does not rule on personal names. This does not preclude linking them to their Ukrainian articles. You have recently removed Zofia Stankiewicz for Станкевич Соф?я. Do you have a Latin version of Лопух?на Мар?амна Андр?ан?вна? This may also affect alphabetical sorting, as the family name appears to come first in Станкевич Соф?я.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 16:19, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- I suggest using {{Interlanguage link|uk|Zofia Stankiewicz|Станкевич Соф?я}} which generates
Zofia Stankiewicz
?[
uk
]
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 16:28, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Lopuchin Mariamna Andrianivna = Лопух?на Мар?амна Андр?ан?вна according to ggtranslate, I'll confirm later , if possible.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 16:34, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Mariamna and Andrianivna look like female forenames, so I'd put
Mariamna Andrianivna Lopuchin
?[
uk
]
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 16:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Found it?: It is Mariamna Davydoff (1871 - 1961)
[8]
as on commons
[9]
used in the gallery on the corresponding ukr page
[10]
--
DDupard
(
talk
) 16:50, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- in French data base?: Davydov, Mariamna Adrianovna ,
[11]
--
DDupard
(
talk
) 17:04, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Library of Congress?: Mariamna Davydoff,
[12]
--
DDupard
(
talk
) 17:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Well done! The Google translation of
uk:Лопух?на Мар?амна Андр?ан?вна
seems to indicate that she married Lev Davydov in 1899, and that she was from the Лопух?ни (Lopukhin) aristocratic family, so it all fits.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 17:25, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Books illustration
[13]
--
DDupard
(
talk
) 17:30, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
User:DDupard
, your recent comment
<!--Benezit online offers only a short view of the full article.-->
is correct for links of this sort
[14]
. However, where I notice that this short view does not give the cited information I check the full article on
Oxford Art Online
, for which I have a Library barcode login. The full article for Gustave Alaux does not mention the Academie Julian. Please do not cite a source unless you have personally verified that it gives the required information.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 20:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- I cited Benezit for notoriety, since you mentioned your concerns about that at first.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 20:42, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- A fair point (except that notoriety is usually for something bad). I will change it to
Template:Additional citation needed
.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 21:07, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Depends, how many languages do you "speak" or comprehend?, no lessons please, + actually there is a guideline about this somewhere on WP. --
DDupard
(
talk
) 21:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- I am a native English speaker, with a limited knowledge of French, Spanish and Italian and a little Welsh. "Notoriety" can be used in a neutral way, similar to "notable", but it is usually similar to "infamous".
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 22:07, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- In this case you may have access to the Witt Library and/or Courtauld Institute of Art (London)--
DDupard
(
talk
) 00:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Yes, and the British Library and the V&A library. However, we shouldn't include
original research
in Wikipedia.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 02:37, 12 October 2016 (UTC).
[
reply
]
- I am talking Courtauld: world expert institution on art . What are you talking about??? --
DDupard
(
talk
) 09:12, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- The
British Library
and the
National Art Library
at the
Victoria and Albert Museum
are both major resources for research in fine arts, as is the
Witt Library
at the Courtaud. However, I don't live in London and only occasionally visit.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 16:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
User:DDupard
, you have removed the following tag from Raoul Barre with the check-in comment
removed excessive (if not abusive tagging)?: webarchives acceptable and used
- {{Better source|reason=Academie Julian not mentioned in Benezit article, second source is self-published.|date=October 2016}}
Firstly, you should not have marked the removal of a tag as a minor edit. This may have been an oversight.
Why did you assume that I was objecting to archived links? The
reason
text indicated that the problem is that the www.bdquebec.qc.ca site was self-published. I may be wrong in this conclusion, but it is certainly not a mainstream art-historical website and it is not an ideal source. I added this citation myself, and added the tag in the same edit. Adding a marginal source with a health warning is constructive editing.
"Academie Julian not mentioned in Benezit article"
means that the first citation does not indicate that Barre was a student at the Academie Julian. I used
better source required
because one of the sources does not mention the issue, and the second is a poor-quality source.
In your next edit you changed
reason=Academie Julian not mentioned in cited source or in the linked article.
to
reason=Academie Julian not mentioned in cited source
, with the comment
abusive tagging. Bravo!
I certainly did not intend to be abusive, and I do not see how you concluded this. This was on the
Additional citation needed
tag for Ernst Barlach. The need for facts to be cited where they appear is reduced if they are cited in a linked article, so the need for an additional citation was partly because there was no relevant citation in the linked article. After I added this tag you added an additional citation, at which point you could have deleted the tag.
I am trying to improve the article by adding citations and tagging where more sources are needed. I am also adding dates and images, and checking that the linked articles are for the right people. In a few cases I have edited the linked articles. If you do not approve of the way I am doing this then please discuss it here. Please discuss the removal of any tags, unless you have made an edit that resolves the problem.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 04:36, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Please discuss the addition of any tag.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 09:06, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- User:DDupard
, that is an unreasonable request. I have already outlined my approach to adding tags, and we have discussed a few examples. If you object to my actions in general then please discuss this. Otherwise I intend to continue in the same manner.
- On reflection, my
Please discuss the removal of any tags, unless you have made an edit that resolves the problem.
might also be seen as unreasonable. I should have said "please give clear reasons for removing any tag, either here or in the check-in comment".
- Your recent check-in comment:
"better" citation provided for "improvement"?: ref from national French archives, 1929 article, 10th word , top of page 82, left column?;)
appears to be sarcastic. Was this your intention?
- It appears that every edit you make is marked as a minor edit.
Help:Minor edit
describes when this should be used. Have you somehow set your user preferences to automatically check the minor edit box?
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 16:50, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- The option to
Mark all edits minor by default
is not available on English Wikipedia, see
m:Help:Preferences#Editor
. If your "home" Wiki is not English Wikipedia then you may have set it there. Please consider unselecting this option, unless it is helpful for your contributions to other Wikis.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 17:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- 1) You asked for citations, I provided some and for the one referenced above, could not activate Zoom-mode, so I was specific. 2) as far as adding references, it is considered a Minor edit by my book, since there is no modification of the page text.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 17:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- Help:Minor edit
says:
- When
not
to mark
- Adding or removing content in an article
- Adding or removing visible
tags
or other templates in an article
- Adding or removing
references
or
external links
in an article
- Adding comments to a
talk page
or other discussion
- Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 18:23, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
see:
Category:Pages using center with no arguments
- Fixed.
Verbcatcher
(
talk
) 20:03, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
"By my count", there are 543 references on the article page.--
DDupard
(
talk
) 05:35, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
[
reply
]
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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List of faculty and alumni of the Academie Julian
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[
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I have added Abraham Neumann as a student per his Wikipedia page, but the only source I can find online is non-notable - a Polish auction house. I have put this source, but help appreciated.
Tacyarg
(
talk
) 22:19, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
[
reply
]
- From
Gallery 97
, Tel Aviv
[15]
--
DDupard
(
talk
) 03:40, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
[
reply
]
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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